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The Mastering Podcast
In a world obsessed with instant gratification and overnight success, Mastering… offers a refreshing antidote. We go beyond the surface-level stories and delve into the nitty-gritty of what it truly takes to master a craft.
Mastering is a podcast that delves into the secrets of mastery by interviewing experts at the top of their game. Each episode features an in-depth conversation with a master from a different field, from artists and athletes to entrepreneurs and scientists. We'll explore their journeys, their mindsets, and the unique skills and strategies they've developed to achieve excellence.
The Mastering Podcast
The Matilda Who Didn't Know the Matildas Existed | Mastering Sports with Amy Chapman
What happens when a seven-year-old girl from country Australia decides she wants to play for the Socceroos? For Amy Chapman, it meant cutting her hair into an undercut and pretending to be a boy for years while playing in all-male teams. When puberty made that charade impossible, she discovered there was actually a national women's team – the Matildas – though she'd never heard of them before.
Amy joins our hosts Magnus Olsen, Don Sanka and special guest and sports scientist, Tenzing Tsewang to share her remarkable journey from those humble beginnings to representing Australia internationally, with, commentating the Women's World Cup final to 1.2 billion viewers, and eventually pioneering in the medical technology space offers a fascinating window into personal resilience and the evolution of women's sport in Australia.
"I got more money from Centrelink going to university than I did playing for the Matildas full-time," Amy reveals, highlighting the stark financial realities faced by female athletes even at the highest level. Despite suffering three ACL reconstructions and seven knee surgeries throughout her career, she persevered – balancing elite sport with education and eventually building a career in neurosurgical medical devices.
The 2023 Women's World Cup proved transformative for the visibility of women's football in Australia. Amy, who was right in the thick of it as a commentator, observed how gender disappeared from the conversation: "There was no mention of gender. They were analyzing the game, critiquing players... That's what was so refreshing." This cultural shift has already translated into tangible results, with Football Queensland experiencing 180% growth in female participation.
Now a board member for Football Queensland and founder of the Medical Technology Institute, Amy is helping shape the future of both women's sport and medical innovation while creating pathways for athletes transitioning to new careers. Her story demonstrates that sometimes the most powerful impact happens after the final whistle blows.
Amy Chapman's journey from pretending to be a boy in country football to commentating the Women's World Cup final to 1.2 billion viewers demonstrates the remarkable evolution of women's football in Australia.
Join us on this wide-ranging conversation about sports science, video analysis in coaching, women's football development, neurosurgery, and the critical importance of diverse role models for young athletes.
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If you're the best player in the team, you're in the wrong team. I've always strongly believed that If you're the smartest person in a room, you're in the wrong room. Surround yourself with people who are going to inspire you and challenge you. The first thing she walks into the female change rooms and she sees a trough and she's like, well, there's a waterfall in here. The next thing you walk in and there's only pictures of male football teams all in the history of that, of male football teams, all in the history of that, so to be. I think we've got a lot of work to do at grassroots to make people and the environment more culturally inclusive. There's very few females in the game outside of just football From any kind of governance perspective. I got more money from Centrelink going to university than I did from playing for the Matildas full-time. Can she grab this game? Can she grab the Matildas future?
Magnus:Right today on the Mastering Podcast, we're joined by ex-professional footballer, Amy Chapman, a former Matilda and one of Australia's most respected voices in the game. She's not only mastered performing at the highest level, but also the transition from elite sport into media leadership and personal growth. Also joining us are my co-hosts, Don Sanka and Tenzin Siwang, if I pronounce that correctly. Welcome to the podcast, guys.
Tenzing:Thanks. Close enough is good enough.
Magnus:Okay, I think we'll kick things off. Let's explore the evolution of women's sport, and football in particular, and how the games first changed. So how did you first get involved in soccer?
Amy:Oh yeah, gosh, it feels like a lifetime ago, but I actually I've got a twin sister and I've got an older brother, and my brother was just playing football. So it was convenient for my twin sister and I to just go out and play as well, just to kill some time. So that's how I got into football. I was probably seven. I grew up in a country town, albury, so on the border of New South Wales and Victoria. So yeah, I grew up playing with boys, in fact, only with boys, till I was almost 16. So there's a bit to unpack in that, but that's how I discovered football and I think, being a twin as well, I was just hyper competitive.
Don:I just wanted to be better than my siblings, and that's where the passion and the fire came from.
Amy:Twin is that an identical twin or no, but if she walked in you'd be like that's, that's definitely your twin so very similar did you guys sub every now and then?
Don:so if you're, if you're one's not feeling, we have done some cheeky.
Amy:You know swap ids here and there just to change it up. But no, we're always on the field together, which is helpful.
Don:Would have been really good to have one good player between the two of you. Like you know, I did play three seasons at the Ipswich Bulls Churches Football League. Wow yeah, I ended up being the goalie because it was exhausting running from. I didn't realise how far the football field is Like it's 90 metres or something from one end to the other.
Amy:So you're that fast and they put you in goals, don't you run?
Tenzing:400 metres. Yeah, I do, I do.
Don:But where I was getting at is if you had two people through the game that could sub between the twins perfect, that would have been the we only ever passed to each other.
Amy:I feel like that was the problem. We had to be taught to pass to others.
Don:Was she a player too? Yeah, she was a very good footballer. Oh, okay, did she still play?
Amy:No, when she was about 14 or 15, she did her ACL and we didn't really know how to treat that back then, so she sort of stopped earlier than I did, but she still went all the way to play for Australian under 20s I think, so she was very good.
Magnus:So there was no female league back when you started. So you said you played with the boys up until 16. Is that correct? So there's.
Amy:Yeah, so obviously in the cities there was, but because I was in the regions in the country, there was probably not enough. There was no female only teams at that stage. But also we loved playing with the boys. There's a bit of a story where I, you know, tried to pretend I was a boy for a long time so that they didn't try and make me move teams.
Magnus:How did you do that?
Amy:Yeah, so it all actually came. I think it was 99 or 2000. We went and watched the Socceroos play against Iran in a World Cup qualifier. It was an unbelievable game. I think it was when that streaker came out and pulled the net down. I don't know if any of you remember that, but Harry Kuehl was there. Mark Viduka, we watched that game and we drove back.
Amy:It was about three hours from that game and I remember saying to my parents I want to play for the Socceroos. I am so passionate. All I wanted to do was play for the Socceroos. How old were you then? I was probably 11, 10 or 11. And so, off the back of that, I knew that I needed to cut my hair. So I asked both my parents to get an undercut and I quite literally had an undercut for the next four or five years because I didn't want to stand out. I thought that's what I needed to look like and it's a bit of a powerful story about the importance of role models and diversity of role models because I genuinely thought I needed to look like Harry Kuehl to play for the Socceroos and I didn't want the selectors to know that I was a female. So that continued for about five years and I was the only girl in a lot of these teams I played in and most of the teams I played against had no idea.
Tenzing:So were you already playing soccer by that age, at 11?
Amy:Yes, yeah, yeah, okay.
Tenzing:so it wasn't the genesis of you starting soccer.
Amy:No, so I was playing at like six or seven years old and then we were either my twin and I were the only girls in the team, and then sometimes I was the only girl in the team. So I just wanted to blend in, I just wanted to be one of the boys and continue that until puberty hit, and then it got a bit harder to hide that actually.
Don:That's extraordinary. So you did actually play in the boys, pretended to be a boy and just Well, I mean they all knew my team knew. They knew I was a girl? Were there any rules saying girls can't play Up?
Amy:until I was 15 and then at that point there was a rule. So I was the first and only female to be selected for New South Wales at that level at under 14, under 15, to go into a camp and then the regulators stepped in and said actually no, you can't. So there was a few people that you know it was a bit of a battle. You know my mum, both my parents are lawyers, so they were like how hard do we go with?
Amy:this In the end. Yeah, I was about 15 or 16. It was the first time I ever played in a team full of women and other players, so it was interesting.
Don:You talked about role models. Right Like for you. You said, harry Curl, there's got to be other female role models that you could have looked up to and said I want to be like that.
Amy:No, I'd never heard of the Matildas, and this is not that long ago. I couldn't name one player, so I think that just shows the importance of visibility.
Amy:So no, I only knew male sporting role models, and now that's what's so brilliant about what's happened in the last few years is the number of household names we have in women's not just women's football, in women's sport in general. So I think Cathy Freeman was probably someone I looked up to because she was the only female that I knew and saw achieving and doing incredible things on TV, but for the most part it was all men.
Don:I think that shows the challenge a fair bit right for female sports, like we take a lot of things for granted. And for you growing up, who was your role model?
Tenzing:Jeez. Well, I was probably a good sportsman, but a terrible at like. I wasn't excellent at anything, so I probably was a good all-round. A terrible at like. I wasn't excellent in anything, so I probably was a good all-rounder, but never something that I reckon I focused on. Well, I have become more of one now because I have a son who is playing, so he's got that 13 year level. He's playing in an A-League academy now down in Sydney, so it's, it is impressive and it's interesting to sort of have a look at the, the focus of the game, particularly in different states. With my hat on for VO, what I find is that I deal with all the state associations of football. Everyone does it slightly different.
Don:I think this is a good time for us to actually do a quick intro to Tenzing and the reason why he's here. Our regular co-hosts have taken a bit of a break and one of the other big reasons is that, you know we've had a huge response to some of the sporting stories that we've been able to tell through the podcast, and a lot of people have reached to us and asked if they could become sponsors of the podcast, and you know we can't be bored.
Don:I know you think there is a price, but we can't be bored, but we are open to partnerships. So for us, the biggest thing is being able to let the athletes, the sponsors and the clubs tell their stories, and that's come across really well with some of the episodes we have done and we want to continue doing that. So the opportunity came saying, okay, well, if sports is something every one of us are passionate about and there's a certain type of mastery in sports, why don't we create a separate sports series? And I've known Tenzing for years and we were chatting and he was talking about this new technology that he was bringing into Australia and working with the clubs.
Tenzing:You're flattering me here. This is not my product.
Don:Also, tenzing is a sports scientist as well. So we thought, okay, well, why don't we add some more masters onto the panel? And yeah, tenzing said, yeah, I'd love to be part of it, and also I'm really interested about the technology around VR as well, so we'll touch on that a bit later on. Yeah, sure, no problem. But yeah, going back to raw models, yeah, where I was getting at was for me, it was Michael Jordan, right For me to see. Well, and I was a track and field athlete from a really young age. We had people like Carl Lewis, michael Johnson, all of these people that I could grow up to look like or be, and we take for granted that for female athletes, even if they wanted to become one of those athletes, there are certain sports that it's really hard to even imagine who you want to become, and this is a really good example of that, and sometimes you take that for granted.
Amy:Absolutely. And it's not even just the young females coming through, it's the young males to also have female role models. I think that's incredibly powerful. It's young boys just talking and analysing professional athletes. I want to be like that person or that individual, not I think gender is really irrelevant.
Don:That's true Crazy. I didn't mention any female names and Cathy Freeman for me was like she's amazing. A lot of people don't know Cathy Freeman at the 2000 Olympics, but for me she was one of the best 400 runners all throughout the 90s, mid-90s, right throughout, like the 90s, mid-90s, right, exactly.
Amy:And it's the dedication, it's the athleticism, it's everything that they've achieved on that scale and what it took to get there. That's what's impressive about what they've achieved. It is actually completely irrelevant around their gender, but I think it's important when people, especially young and I've got a little two-year-old now so just thinking about the visibility that they have, I think it's just so powerful. Because I genuinely thought I had to have an undercut to play for the Socceroos and I genuinely thought I could play for the Socceroos. I could not. My parents were sort of like oh when do we tell her that that's for men? And then you know so they would go out of their way to try and find me female role models. But it shouldn't have had to be that hard, and thank God now that it isn't. But we've still got a long way to go, particularly for different sports.
Magnus:How's it different Like you've got a 13 year old at the moment and we talked earlier just off camera just in relation to technology, wearables, data. How's that changed since you were growing up Much data analysis as a you were growing up. Were there much data analysis as a young girl growing up playing footy?
Amy:Well, I think the higher up you go, the more you see it and the more involved. Definitely, certainly you know the GPS trackers and how they use that data, even for load management and those kinds of things. But I think the evolution, even over the last five years, has been unbelievable to watch as a fan, as someone who now commentates on the game at a professional level. The stats that we can get are unbelievable. Some of it just throw it straight in the bin. There's boring with stats, but other times it's really incredible to really see what makes this player, what makes the difference between someone who's good, great to phenomenal, and it is those little one percenters which is what you can measure with this tech as well. So I think it's incredible and you can probably talk to what has changed in the last sort of five, 10 years more.
Tenzing:Yeah, I think wearables have taken a real. I think they came to prominence for GPS. I think GPS were probably the first one. I actually used to work for the inaugural company called GP Sports back in the old day, so it was Catapult and GP Sports. They were the first wearable electronics you could wear that would measure everything. So the Catapult that we know of now which is yeah, so Catapult ended up buying GP Sports. I mean, that's a side note, but they cornered the market really in terms of how you assess players and I used to do that on a professional level at different teams and rugby league and cricket and so on and so on and rugby union. So that's probably the genesis of, I'd say, the wearables.
Tenzing:And then it came into heart rate monitors and heart rate variability was a big conversation point and now it's going to be video analysis, which has really taken off, I'd say in the last 10 years. Even before that they used to have companies like your ProZones that used to do high quality stuff that used to be coded up by people somewhere in a different country and then they would send in that video. But I think the agency now is upon the athlete, particularly the young one, to give them as much ownership over how they can interpret their own data to splice up their own clips. We're in a social media network these days, so how do you increase your profile? How do you create your own highlights? And coming back to feedback, how do you think video analysis or what other tools would you get normally to give you that kind of tangible feedback for an athlete?
Don:I think it also gives access to more people. Right, when we talked about having all those technologies, they were available for the people who could afford it or to the elite teams. Now you can put something on your wrist as a grassroots athlete who's developing themselves or a female athlete who didn't have that funding. In the past, All the male-funded sports would have had all of these great technologies, but probably not the female athletes. Right, and female athletes have different challenges, like iron deficiency, Like I've seen so many amazing products that I was trying to work on. You know getting that real-time feedback. So there's certain type of different challenges and measurement points that is required for a female athlete that people wouldn't have cared about.
Amy:Absolutely, and I feel like there's certain things you can have all the devices in the world, but if you can't afford to have someone to interpret it and then put that into practice, it's almost meaningless. But I think part two what you alluded to there there's some fascinating research that is being done and I think the saddest thing is a lot of you know I work in medical devices and med tech, so very much inside surgeries. I worked inside neurosurgery watching brain surgeries for a really long time we can unpack that.
Amy:Yeah, that's very curable yeah so tech is my thing as well, much more on the surgical side of things. But what I've learned about that is actually almost all the data and clinical trials we've had. There's very few, if any.
Don:In fact, it used to be illegal to have women as a part of clinical trials, so a lot of the information that we get now why Based on male Probably because males were making Through an ethics board.
Amy:Yeah, exactly, it's just historically they only use men for a lot of these clinical trials across the board. So there's obviously this whole new world of women's health which now finally getting some limelight. But when we link that back to sport, I think some of the bigger countries in football they're doing a lot about around menstrual cycles and how we adjust loading and all that, and they use a lot of that data, because I have torn my ACL three times and all three times was a certain time of my cycle as well, so we won't go into detail about that, but there's a lot of science.
Don:It's quite important, right, and that's why I said the science and the data points required for a female or for a junior athlete is very different to what you would be for an elite athlete, and if all the technologies are built to focus on elite athletes, then Exactly, and I think also when you get that data in isolation so you have the catapult.
Amy:Gps is brilliant to figure out how many high speed minutes players are doing. How can they sustain that international level of pace that's required for a sport like football? But video analysis, I think because of what a lot of people who were all football tragics here you know, goalkeeper three years.
Amy:I'll take that as a tragic I think what's brilliant about football and why I'm definitely biased. But it's actually also a decision-making sport. You can't just be a really great elite athlete. So that's why you know, if you're quick, powerful, all those things and maybe in other sports, that's enough. So I'm not trying to put other sports there, but all those things and maybe in other sports, that's enough. So I'm not trying to put other sports there, but rugby league. If you're strong, you're powerful and you're quick, you're probably going to have a great career. If you can't visualize the game, make great decisions, understand your body positioning, which can only be analyzed, really, by video analytics, it's so much more of a decision-making sport and you need that football IQ which we talk about a lot. If you don't have that, you will stand out like a sore thumb at the top level. It doesn't matter how quick you are Talking about video analysis.
Don:I'm curious about that green thing that's on that side there. We, you know, one of the things we said is we want to talk to sponsors and technology builders that are supporting sports has the same vision, want to help grassroots sports as well, and these things. I'm really curious, do you know?
Tenzing:Yeah Well, getting back to it, just before we do this quantitative, when we normally do sports science testing in a sport it's usually quantitative, so you either get a certain speed in a 40-meter distance, it's a number. We can measure improvements on it quite simply. When we get into video, and generically I think we talk more about qualitative, and now you talk about decision-making. So the most important thing, I think, from video, in terms of the way that we either capture and analyze, is the qualitative stuff. It's the stuff that you don't necessarily measure through a sports science, calipers or measurements or a stopwatch.
Tenzing:So decision-making if you're a number 10, is really, really important. How do you distribute the ball? Then you can kind of analyze different positions as well. It becomes more positional, specific as opposed to quantitative or measurements. If you're looking at rugby league, you're right, it's very much the big athlete that usually develops earlier, the ones that get into the pathways. But what I love about soccer is it's the little ones can survive and they can flourish. So I think video for a great segue here it's an AI-powered camera, so you actually don't need anyone to sit there on the sideline.
Don:What does that mean? Ai-powered camera.
Tenzing:Well, it will capture all of the footage in front for 180 view. So you put it up in the middle of the field and you can erect it up to five to seven metres.
Don:Just one camera, one camera. So you don't need a whole bunch of cameras, no, just one camera.
Tenzing:It meters just one camera, so you don't need a bunch of cameras, no, just one camera. It will capture everything in front of it from 180 degree view. Yeah, then it will code it by ai and it will follow the ball. So in the case of soccer, it's optimized perfectly for soccer because it will follow the ball, it will zoom in or zoom out, it will capture all of those moments around the ball. But what you can also do is zoom out and you can actually look at the goalkeeper positioning. It's on the left-hand side that's not following the ball because it's all over in the attack side. So it enables you to kind of have a full view of the oval but also follow the ball for those kind of quick-back moments.
Don:How small does the ball need to be? Can it do something like tennis, or is it?
Tenzing:just yeah, I can feel you're coming towards something here. Yes, you can. I'd say it's optimised for football and rugby, but it is used in all ball sports Hockey.
Don:It's very effective For athletics right, I'm in track and field. There's no ball.
Tenzing:No, you would need to run around with a soccer ball, I'd say, which would probably not be great for your taste.
Don:I've got a better idea. What if I shave my head right? I have a bald head.
Tenzing:Well, you're lucky, you still have a bit of hair.
Don:What if I shave my head? Would it follow me?
Tenzing:I don't know. We would need to test that out. This is the scientific part of me. I think we need to test that out and I'm happy to do that experiment if you want to shave your head.
Don:Let's put it to our producer. Mate, Are you open to us?
Tenzing:Hang on. I think we need to test to see how close we get the shave to your head first.
Don:I'll shave it. I'll even draw a football on my head. Great yeah, but no, it's ball sports.
Magnus:Not bold sports. Yes, very good, very good one.
Tenzing:Yeah, no ball sports. So it's effective in that way, and our mission of Vision is very much to get it to the grassroots, to make it accessible to everybody, and I think that was the genesis of the story and that's where I think we connected right when I was talking to Tenzing.
Don:One of the things we wanted him to come here was because he's a sports scientist more than anything else. We wanted someone legitimate not the pretenders like we are to sit on this panel to add some value. And then he started talking about what VIO can do and how you've been working with grassroots sports and I was like oh, how does that work?
Tenzing:Well, we partner with Football Queensland and you're on the board for Football Queensland.
Amy:Yeah, I'm coming on six and a bit years on the board of Football Queensland, so we've got 380 clubs, enormous, enormous captive audience in that space. And I think this is where the future of this tech is is yes, we're already doing it at the elite level. How do we analyse other teams? How do we analyse our teams and improve in every isolated moment? I think that's what's brilliant is you can capture a moment and have a look at that decision making. Have a look at did you look forward first or did you make that run? Did you make that run too early? All those kinds of concepts.
Amy:But to teach that younger generation around formation and understanding of the game, I think when we can implement that and roll that out at the grassroots level, I think that will be brilliant. But it still needs to be powered by people. As we discussed, the tech is incredible but you need to be able to have the right people and coaches, and a lot of the grassroots football is literally on the foundations of volunteers. So I think the more we can do for volunteers in the game, the better the game will be in the future and that's probably worth a whole podcast on its own.
Tenzing:I think we've glazed over the fact that, aren't you? Didn't you play for New South Wales?
Amy:I did yes.
Tenzing:So hang on. Where's the defection to Queensland? Why do you have allegiance to Queensland football?
Amy:Well, because I live here. But no, I mean, I'm a blue through and through.
Tenzing:Oh, okay, oh, you are Wow yes yeah, yeah. Okay.
Amy:Well, albury, it's borderline. To be fair, I grew up watching AFL for the most part, so I was a Collingwood tragic for 20 years. But yes, at one point when I went to the AIS with the Matildas I must have been 15 or 16, they said you've got to make the move. You can't live in Albury and then also want to play internationally. So I moved to Canberra and then the Matildas coach at that time said there's not enough Matildas living in Canberra, they're all in Sydney or Brisbane. Where do you want to move to? Went to Sydney, almost went to Westfield Sports High, and I thought this is a bit busy for a country girl. So I picked Brisbane and that was it. I've never looked back, so I've probably been here since I was 21,.
Don:I think so yeah, 15, 16 years now, and you played for the Raw.
Amy:Played 10 odd seasons for the raw, played a few seasons in LA, um, in the U S, yeah, so I was at LA galaxy. The same time Beckham was at the men's team there. So that was that was pretty cool. Um, so, yeah, I played a couple of seasons over there. Um, obviously traveled a lot with the Matildas. Um, yeah, and I at one point I think I must've been 21.
Amy:I actually, you know, I think we kind of alluded to potentially what was any regrets I had around my football career, and obviously that was heavily shaped by injuries. I had seven knee operations, so three full ACL recons, which, as we know, is so two on one, one on the other. So I ran out of hamstrings to use at one point, so I had a patella at the other. Yeah, so I had two before I was 21. So two ACLs before I was 21. That was ACLs before I was 21. That was actually before I even had my stint with the Matildas and in that process we didn't quite have the professional environment to rehab it perfectly. I went to a World Cup the Under-20s World Cup at six months post-ACL, which is literally unheard of now. So, yeah, wasn't the fittest, wasn't the sharpest, but I was still good enough to go and I played some part, but that would not happen in today's age. Six months Was it last?
Tenzing:Did you do last? Nope.
Amy:I did a full hamstring reconstruction and I still went to a World Cup at six months, so usually they're only just running, at six months, as you know now.
Don:I had one. I've gone through it. There's no way I've gone through it too.
Magnus:Do you think that had something to do with doing it again, that you didn't rehab it properly?
Amy:Definitely I do think that played a part. Now I did the other one, so I did left and then right or right then left, but yes, certainly rushing that process back was a part of it. But also being a female, genetics, all these things and playing a sport that requires sharp, agile movement. You asked how I also got into it. I was a sprinter actually before. So my twin and I we were both very quick runners and that's probably what helped us foundationally be great footballers. But that's sort of where it actually started is 100 metre, 200 metre dash Albury record.
Don:I've still got some records in Albury I think Unbreakable. I was going to ask, yeah, a lot of kids in Australia like there's a great pathway through Little Athletics right, like everyone sort of gets an opportunity to go and see what they're good at and then decide where you want to go. I was actually going to ask have you ever been part of Little Athletics? Yes, yeah, in Albury, I was, yeah in.
Amy:Albury, I was. Yeah, I think I loved it and I loved the competitive. I loved winning all those sorts of things, but nothing beats a team sport in my eyes Okay yeah.
Amy:So I think it's just that sense of community and there's always that sense of competitiveness. That's there. But I always, you know, I get a lot of parents ask me now, you know, I've got a young girl coming through. She's playing in a boys' team. Should she stay in a boys' team at this, you know, 10 or 11 age, or should she go to girls? And I always say A play where they're happiest, play where they're going to stay and they're going to enjoy the game. But also and this applies to young boys as well and everyone If you're the best player in the team, you're in the wrong team.
Amy:I've always strongly believed that If you're the smartest person in a room, you're in the wrong room. Surround yourself with people who are going to inspire you and challenge you, and I think that mantra for people who want to achieve and go above and beyond is the same for the boys. It's all good and well being. I'm the top goal scorer in that team. Well, I'm the top goal scorer in that team? Well, you should be playing an age group up, or you should move to a different team where you're not the best player, so that you're constantly challenged.
Tenzing:So what would your message be then, for, let's say, it's a young girl that is 11, 12. They're making a decision whether they keep playing in a boys' team where they will probably not be the physically most dominant. Do they go into a pathway that's specific for females, or do they stay in the boys' sort of outfit as long as possible?
Amy:Well, first and foremost, it's definitely around where are they enjoying their football the most? Because I think we lose a lot of those players 13, 14, they get distracted by all other things. So, to keep them where they're enjoying their football, but if they're happy in the boys' team, that's where they should stay. If you are challenged every single day, and even at the top level, when I was 20, even when I was playing with the Matildas and we were outside of our A-League women's season here, I would train with the Brisbane City or Brisbane Strikers senior men's team. So we'd train with them on the weekends sorry, throughout the week and then we might play a game against other women or younger boys.
Amy:So, 17s, but ensuring that when I was training, I was training at a speed that was as high as possible, at the intensity that is as high as possible, and that is easy enough to do when you're younger, because you just go up an age group or you. So sometimes you might train with the boys, but you play with the girls on the weekend and that's okay as well. There's no perfect recipe. It's around challenging yourself in every aspect of intensity, speed, aggression, all those sorts of things.
Don:Before you move on to the next question, can I ask what was your 100 time and the 200 time? Is that what you did? Oh yeah, oh gosh.
Amy:I was young, but I was in the 12s. For I don't know, for Hanji, I don't remember. I think that's what my record is is in late 12s, I think. But I was, that was just school age. I couldn't tell you, I didn't concentrate enough on that. I don't even think I had spikes or anything, it was just I was just Not quantitative.
Tenzing:There's no stopwatches like that.
Amy:That's it, yeah, and.
Don:I'll be all done. There you go.
Magnus:So it's a good yeah, find that transition into normal life, and what are some of the challenges that you faced?
Amy:Yeah, it's a great question. I think, well, I was 27 when I was forced to retire from the Matildas because I did my ACL. I was about seven minutes into a game and it was a bad tackle. So I knew in that moment and now we know it's a 12-month injury and the Matildas contracts were six months long and it was about to be renewed two weeks later. So in one tackle I lost all my income, I lost everything and I knew I wouldn't get my Matildas contract back in that moment. So I think for me it was a bit of a forced reality of you've got to sort out your future and what else are you going to do? Lucky for me, I have a very supportive family who have put a lot of weight on education, which is not the case for a lot of the players, not the case for a lot of Matildas. There's some who are extreme. They've done four or five degrees, all sorts, and then there's the others who haven't done anything and I am often worried about that because it can all end in one moment. So I think I was always conscious of that and we alluded before that I went into med tech, so I was really lucky that I actually discovered that as an industry and I think a lot of people actually have no clue what that is.
Amy:But essentially you represent the industry. You go into operating theatres and you look after little machines and the equipment that they use. So I wanted to go into orthopaedics looking after ACLs, because I'd had three ACLs. I had a natural interest in that. I'd done a degree in sports science and was thinking about going back and doing physio. And then I just had a friend who worked for a big med tech company. She was heading into theatres and she said I was like you're going into operating theatres, that's brilliant, I love that. And then I knew from that breakfast that's what I wanted to do. So then, yeah, I landed a role in med tech and I landed a role in neurosurgery. So I literally went in and I'd still play for Brisbane Royal. I'd go in and be a part of brain surgeries and look after the machines that remove brain tumours. That was my job.
Tenzing:So you just sit there in the background and just sort of watch.
Amy:Yeah, my job is to ensure the safe and effective use of that pretty hardcore machinery in there. So I work with the neurosurgeon, I work with the spine surgeons, and then I'd literally go to Brisbane Royal Training in the afternoon and I remember just the girls would be like what have you been up to today? I was like I can't even tell you the thing.
Don:I want to take a couple of steps back Before we go to the switch the whistle. I'm really interested now because studying as a professional player is a tough thing to do, um, but then what was your pathway like? We got to where you were like a 20 year old and you had to make the switch from, you know, playing with the female wanting to be a, um, male player, to then realize instantly, you know, you can't play for the socceroos. And then you had to sort of make that transition to the Matildas. What was that pathway like? How did you become a Matilda and was that easy?
Amy:Oh no, well, it wasn't easy. I think when I moved to Canberra at 15 or 16, that was the first time I played in a competitive female environment. So it was so eye-opening as well just to know that other female players were also playing. I think because I grew up in the country town. It was just so different. And then I realised, oh, I'm actually pretty good, I knew I was quite good, but I didn't realise comparison to females and all those sorts of things that I was like, oh, I could genuinely go quite far here. So I think that was when I first moved to Canberra and I must have been 15 or 16 and I played in the Open Women's A-League season and then it was about four or five different Matildas in that squad at that time and I was like, well, okay, I can make a career of this. So I was lucky and I think I was 16, 17, maybe the first time I went to the Matildas camp, australian under-20s, and I did my ACL twice. So it was delayed slightly.
Don:So you didn't have an opportunity to stay home and play. You had to move to Canberra.
Amy:I 100% had to move, yeah.
Don:And that okay yeah.
Amy:I think I was in year 11 when I moved and I had to redo year 11, restart year 11 when I moved to Canberra, because they do different schooling systems. So that was a juggle. And it was a big call for my parents too, because they valued education very, very highly. So I think there was a bit of a debate between mum and dad of, like, I'm not going to make any money out of football, but do we let her chase her dreams? So they, let me go? So yeah, then I spent the next five or six years bouncing around Canberra doing that and then, yeah, I was lucky enough to, yeah, compete at the highest level getting doing that and then, yeah, I was lucky enough to yeah compete at the highest level, getting the Matildas that opportunity, not having that locally.
Don:is that a? Again, I didn't do my education in Australia, so is that something that's a, something that is challenging for female athletes, or it's all athletes?
Amy:Oh, that's all athletes across the board? I think if you, because Australia is so huge. But luckily the grassroots programs and development programs are getting better and better and there's more opportunities to stay where you are. But ultimately there comes a time where around that 14, 15, you have to make a call. Are we really going to commit to this as a genuine career and often with the boys, they often consider heading straight to the UK. Are we going to do trials? And there's a fine balance of all of those things and that's a big question mark often for parents of kids.
Don:Yeah, yeah, I was going to say you're going through that right now, right?
Tenzing:Well, I think it's probably the biggest conversation piece. Particularly when you've got a child or you are looking after a child or you're a coach of a child that's of high, high achievement in football. You've got to make a decision on where you think the best philosophy you're learning is going to occur now. Becoming a professional athlete, particularly in football, is minute, so I think it's like 0.001% chance of becoming a professional athlete in football.
Magnus:Is that Australian or international?
Tenzing:That's in any team I think I had the stats somewhere around any professional team in any country. Now to make it into Europe to be a professional athlete is again 100 times less than that. So you're looking at the minuteness of minuteness. Now the question we've got is where is the best development pathway? So for you it was Canberra and AIS. Where is Canberra? Does Canberra play a big role now in female athletes?
Amy:No. So AIS is shut down for both male and female football. So there's state-based institutions, but also the NPL clubs sometimes they are better there's private academies. There's loads of different avenues and you know that holistic decision-making for the child or for that individual, even what clubs you do at the top, top level. We look at some of these key players, like Hayley Rasso she's now Tottenham Hotspurs. She moved from Real Madrid. So she came from the US, absolutely dominating, went to Real Madrid wrong call for her. Went to Spurs wrong call for her. She's now looking for she's one of the top players in the world. But if you don't pick the right club to set yourself up for success at any level of that it's a decision-making you're not guaranteed success at any point.
Tenzing:To be fair, she is hopping around different teams that are all world class.
Amy:I mean, that's the top, top level.
Tenzing:Whereas for I think, the journey of, like a boy at that age to get into any one of those teams would be highly exceptional and a rarity.
Amy:Yes, yes, yeah, exactly.
Tenzing:So okay yeah it's interesting.
Don:So how did you then go from that to you know where you ended up playing for the Matildas? I'm really interested to see how did you make that sort of, even without having all the pressures of becoming a professional athlete, deciding what you want to do in a professional career. To think about that is tough enough. So how did you say, yeah, I'm going to do a sports science degree?
Amy:Yeah, I think for me, having a bit of balance was always important, because you can get so when did that come from?
Don:Is that from your parents? From the coaches?
Amy:Absolutely. It'll be from my family, without doubt. I think everyone in my family have done degrees a big law background. My dad would have loved us to take over the farm. I think the agriculture side just didn't come naturally to me.
Amy:And I've always had a. You know, I think as athletes we all have a natural fascination on the human body how high, how can it perform? And then I think that kind of came across into health and all those sorts of things. So I knew I always wanted to study something in the human body. I didn't know what, but I actually found studying was so good to keep me balanced as a footballer, because otherwise if you focus too much you can absolutely overthink, and I've seen some of the best talented people overthink everything and then they're overanalyzing and they actually don't perform as well. So you've got to get that balance right. And that's where I think people focus too much at times on certain things, that you watch what you're eating too much to the fact that it's a detriment in your performance. So I think that balance was essential.
Amy:I think the era that I came through as well, my contract for the Matildas was I got more money from Centrelink going to university than I did from playing for the Matildas full time. That's crazy. So you're forced to have balance. Nowadays, you know it has changed. It's not as much as everybody thinks, but certainly you have the ability to commit fully and wholeheartedly. So I actually didn't have that option.
Don:So that's why I always needed something else. I do like that word balance right, and also education is power, I believe. You know, it's one of those things where I've got a theoretical physics degree. You're right, sports people are very curious about the science side of how we do what we do. And you know, I don't know if there's enough guidance from the coaches and the clubs and everything else, because education is perceived as a distraction when you're playing.
Magnus:I don't know about that I find that a lot of the professional footy teams now have a huge emphasis and I know Wayne Bennett, for example. He's a huge advocate of having that education?
Don:Yeah, but is that an exception? I do. I agree with you. Yeah, is that an exception to the rule?
Tenzing:No, I'd say it's a lot more standardized. Now You've got welfare managers in those clubs that look after specifically of athletes, particularly the young ones, and they have a certain amount of budget that is betrothed to education for those athletes. So I'd say that it's probably. I'd say it's changed over time absolutely, but it's a journey.
Don:After football or sport, professional sport is a big conversation, but there's a big difference between doing a wellbeing seminar versus building a career pathway where you have an opportunity to do a bachelor's in science or a degree right, and you're on the administration side now in Queensland football. What are those pathways? Are they?
Tenzing:Maybe what's your role there as well, like what are you responsible for from a Football Queensland board of directors?
Amy:Yeah, great question, I think. Just to answer the, I think it's actually been traditionally a bit different between men's sport and women's sport is women always had to have balance because you never earned enough, and I think maybe some of the sports that don't have quite as much income as well, you've always been forced to have that balance, whereas if you're a top 1% footballer and you can make, you know, a couple of hundred million dollar contracts, they dedicated fully and you needed to to compete at that level, whereas I think in the last five years, particularly in NRL, afl, they're focusing a lot more on how can we make these people more well-rounded, which will hopefully then, you know, make them better players and better people as well, because I think it's more than just your on-field performance. So that sort of captures that. But women's elite sport have always been forced to have balance because we never earn enough money. To begin with, what?
Magnus:about media, Because I know that when we interviewed Riley and Cedric recently that the social media element is a huge way from an income and supplementing income perspective. How was that for you?
Amy:It was a bit non-existent in my time, I think mid-Matildas. I remember setting up a Facebook at some point I was a bit before that whole era of influencers and I think I look at all my teammates who are literally the current Matildas that I played with and grew up my whole career playing with them, day in, day out. They went overnight from having 5,000 followers to Sam Kerr's, got close to 2 million, all those kinds of things. So I think the last five years has been a huge and I think we need to do a better job of educating them on how they can use that, you know, as an asset or some of them don't want to as well. Let them be themselves and away from the limelight and just do their job really well. So I think there's a fine balance, because some people feel pressured to do that where they don't want to, and so I was a bit before that.
Magnus:It's having a huge influence on those younger athletes now, isn't it?
Amy:It is massively and I suppose I've been on a little bit during the World Cup. On the sports media side of things. I was really lucky. Well, I suppose lucky, but I fell into sports media. I fell into commentating. Someone just said oh, do you want to come in and give it a go? It's actually a lot trickier than it looks and it turns out I was all right at it, so that's good. Obviously I know and love the game and have a really great understanding of the game. But to be able to articulate that in real time and keep it interesting and all those kind of things has been an art. But I was lucky enough to be heavily involved with the Women's World Cup so I got to commentate the actual Women's World Cup final to the world.
Don:So not just Australia anyone listening in.
Tenzing:English so that was 1.2 billion people listened to that game. Wow, that's got to go on the top of your resume. Surely that's up there.
Amy:It's up there, I think it's having a baby and then that's right up there. I think in terms of cool things I've done in my life, that's right up there. But even just to see the impact that the Women's World Cup had in women's sport on football in this country was phenomenal and to be you know, I was lucky enough to be the forefront. I was in the Matildas camp with them. I interviewed all the players. I was right in there.
Don:It's about as good as it could be if you weren't playing in there. How exciting was that like being in Australia doing that, and also did you call on that match with Australia?
Amy:The France game.
Don:Yeah.
Amy:I commentated that game too, so the penalty shootout which is hilarious, I think, commentated that game too.
Amy:So the penalty shootout, which is hilarious, I think I said I feel sick about three or four times. So I just just couldn't contain the. Because mackenzie arnold is one of my really closest friends, that, like I've grown up with these girls as well, to so see them in those moments and courtney vine she's you know, she's a player I grew up playing with as well, so to just see them and I was, I was feeling it like the rest of the country were.
Don:Yeah, we didn't care. That was the pivotal moment. I think gender just disappeared in sports.
Tenzing:Absolutely Well. Yeah, I took my son. I think we went to about three games. We went to the first two that were in Stadium Australia. My son bought the jersey as well, so we were right into it. It was the most exciting thing I've done in the football world probably in Australia. It was the most exciting thing I've done in the football world, probably in Australia.
Magnus:It put women's football just on the map, didn't it? Everybody was talking about it, I think it was just football then, wasn't it?
Tenzing:It was just like a love of football, and that's why I said the gender was gone, it was just football.
Amy:It was entertaining football and people ask about what was your favourite thing around the World Cup. Obviously, there's loads of highlights, but it was in those little moments how I'd just be walking along the street. You know, days after a game and everyone's still talking about it. I had some random people buying me coffees. Who?
Don:were just like.
Amy:I'll take that, thank you. And then also, just again, there was no mention of gender. They were analysing the game, you know, critiquing players, and they knew every player from every other team my little nephews, they have all the jerseys and every player, they have their favourite players. That is what was so refreshing and it went from. I've spent my whole career where people would say how many games did you play for the Socceroos? And I'd be like, oh, do I bother correcting them or just let it go. A whole career of just letting things slide. And then now there's no way people would make that mistake. And of just letting things slide and then now there's no way people would make that mistake. And being a Matilda and what it took has gone up so much higher on the respect level as well, so it's brilliant.
Don:Yeah, the conversation also changed. From saying, okay, are they deserving of the money that they're asking for? Should there be a gender equality in pay? We're saying, okay, well, the pay should be based on the eyeballs, right, and that World Cup changed that Like we saw what you could do.
Amy:It's a complex narrative, that one because the system has been set up to literally squash. I think there's a big story about back 80 years ago in the UK women's football was far more popular than men's football and then they actually squashed it. So this is in the 1920s. They were selling out stadiums everywhere women's football and they for two reasons, as they said it, they were going to can the entire league because it's taking away from men's football and it's making women come across less feminine. So they crushed the whole thing. So it's taken us 80 years to get us back to doing that. So women's football, or even women's sport, has always been incredibly marketable and it's 50% of the country are females. So it's actually been the system that has squashed it for so long.
Don:So anyways it is a force narrative. I agree with you. And it's yeah, you're looking at stats for the sake of looking at stats and stats are based on whoever is analysing the stats and presenting it the way it's presented. And you were able to break that, that stereotypical sort of view. Yeah, at that workout and this.
Amy:I was playing with the Matildas, you know, only a few years prior to that, and we'd be playing a game in Brisbane. We'd be lucky to get two or three thousand players here. The same players were playing. Sam Kerr was out there playing in your local backyard and no one knew. So the only difference and we were playing at the same speed pace, and I think that's what everyone was really impressed by. It's like these girls are so aggressive, they're so talented, they're so powerful, so skillful. This is entertaining. The only thing that changed was the platform that they were given. That's the difference. So I think it was brilliant. We needed an event like that to change things and speed it up for what maybe would have taken five, ten years to get it.
Magnus:Impact has that had on female soccer?
Tenzing:Enormous, I mean if I put my Female sports, I think you mean the success of the Tildes, correct, yeah?
Amy:I think, if I put my Football Queensland hat on, we've had 180% growth in female participation. There you go, yep, Phenomenal. And I think if we talk about the impacts that sport can have on community society and health, that's what's powerful. It's all great, You've got these elite, you know figures to follow, but the grassroots is really what matters and that's what's going to change and set this next generation up. So you don't have to drive, you know 100 metres down the road and you'll see the impact that it's had by the number of young girls playing out there and loving it.
Magnus:What about young boys? Has that increased as well?
Amy:100%. All of our numbers have so it's just a game of soccer.
Magnus:Overarchingly has increased.
Tenzing:That's right. Yeah, and that's, I think it's up 18% participation across Australia.
Don:I've got two girls right Like running, like a girl narrative has to go and it's going. It's disappearing slowly, I think, because of what the Matildas have done. It's a lot of pressure for the Matildas and we can see that right, because they're now expected to perform every time they turn up. No team can perform, you know.
Amy:And it's tricky and we have been overachieving for a very long time in.
Amy:Matilda's. If you look at the number of people who play in Australia compared to the US, China, even North Korea, like they are incredibly strong footballing nations, so we have a golden generation now. So I'm glad it's happened when it's happened. But I think when I look at the stereotypes of role models that women have had traditionally, I think that's the most powerful thing is you can now have strong, athletic, aggressive, and that's still an incredible female role model where traditionally it was. You had models and you needed to be this you need to be six foot, you need to be skinny, you could. You know those. But now the even CrossFit, have done incredible things to idolize strong women, and that is what I'm so excited about, for my two-year-old daughter is fitness is way more important than being beautiful or all these sorts of things. Strength and I love that and I think it changes the narratives of how men view women as well, so it's probably worthy of another podcast as well.
Magnus:On the fitness side of things, what about mental fitness? How did that? Is that something that's quite structured back when you were playing?
Amy:Absolutely not. I think we had no structure whatsoever, it was.
Magnus:Were there sports psychologists as part of the team.
Amy:No, no, there is now.
Magnus:No now, but back in your day.
Amy:No, no, no, there wasn't in my day. Oh wow, Okay for female.
Don:Male sports would have always had right. We had nothing.
Amy:I mean, maybe in the very last few years of when I was playing elite football would we have anything to do with it?
Don:Forget about sports psychology. They don't even have a coach right now. We'll get to that later on.
Amy:Yeah, it was funny how much and I wish that was something I did better in my time was take a bit of control and ownership over my own view of um. You know, because the uh, you, especially being a striker, your performance anxiety of I must score, I must be involved and you're over analyzing it can actually really bring your performances down. So I think if I had my time again, I would have invested much more in my ability to remain confident at that elite level, because physically you can do all those things, but then you're comparing yourself constantly and it's a tricky balance at that elite level to stay at the top. And I think that youthful confidence. So you see, some of these youthful players come in and they just, you know, they do not care, whereas almost the older you get, the harder it is to bring that youthful confidence.
Magnus:In particular, the injury, because that's something that a lot of players struggle with. Like you mentioned, you've done your ACL three times. I've done mine as well, and just the impact that that has in the back of your mind that well. Last time I did this move, this happened. How did you overcome that?
Amy:Yeah, I think it's tricky because I also had to recreate myself slightly as a player, because after you've done your ACL three times, I probably lost 5% of my speed, so my speed and power. So I almost had to focus on other parts of my game because where I was I was still a quick player, but I was a very quick player before that, so I could get away with things that then.
Magnus:so you had to recreate. It's a deep acceleration as well, isn't it?
Amy:That's right and the change of direction. I mean, I was never great in the air because I'm five foot, nothing. But there's certain things that you have to change and adjust and I think as you get older, you see players, they almost in football they become more central because they lose that speed, but they have that game awareness, that vision and you'd know this. So, yeah, I became a new player and I think, when you Changed position.
Amy:Well, back when I was playing for the Matildas when it first came, we did 4-4-2 and I was a right winger, so I was super quick. Yeah, that was brilliant.
Magnus:Did you play football as well? Absolutely, I captained my team back in the day. Oh wow. Back in primary school I played my son. He was an average soccer player but he went on to be a pretty good referee. He retired last year but he was refereeing NPL, ran a few lines with the Raw and, to your point as well, you mentioned with the training. So all of his training was all done with the Raw referees. So you're putting yourself in that elite space being able to train with the guys which are in the position where you're aiming for.
Amy:Yeah, you've got to be tough. You have good resilience to be a referee, especially at the top level, even NPL level. It's pretty brutal.
Magnus:That positional play. I remember having conversations with him of just the importance of that to be in the right position to try and make the right call.
Amy:Yeah, and even under fatigue, to make the right decisions, all those kind of things, and you've got, you know, a lot of heated people out there giving you a bit of feedback that you're not chasing.
Tenzing:Well, every position has a particular kind of physiology attached to it. So your front three, your wingers and your strikers, like you played nine, right, yeah, or did?
Amy:you play a solo nine. My main position was a ten, but I did play as like a false 9 at times.
Tenzing:So they have a sort of that's a position on the field, but it's usually to do with a certain run, so you might make longer runs. If you're a winger, you might have certain channels that you're working, whereas a 10 might be very much specifically through the middle and you might have multi-directional movements. So you might be playing the ball back and forward and you've got to defend in there, and then you've got your defenders that will play a particular role as well.
Magnus:That doesn't vary for different team game plans on how you're going to play. You're saying that it's quite specific nowadays that as a number 9 or a number 10, you're going to play a specific way.
Tenzing:Depends on the way that you so you look at it two ways. You can look at it via video qualitative and then you can look at it physiologically what you're running and what sort of speeds you get to and what your distances are that you cover. So, yes, you're right, it would probably depend on what position and what structure you play, like your wingbacks now have to run Like your early carpenter is a runner.
Amy:Yes, and I mean there's, like you said, there's physiological things that make you best for each position. It's similar, I guess, in other sports where you've got you know, you've got to be big, strong and you're ruck rovers and all those kind of things. They're small on-ball players, but it's very complex when it comes to football. But where I ended up playing was a number 10 and my job was I'm a very attacking skillful. You're the X factor. You bring in all that X factor when it comes to going to attack. I started my career out wide, so I wasn't expected to create, but I was expected to be very quick, very fit and whip in great crosses. That was my job and that's. You've got very specific jobs within the team and, like you're holding your number six, for example, in a football team would be your playmaker, your anchor, someone who's defensively very good but on the ball has the best 360 vision. So it doesn't actually matter, you know, whether you're small, tall, any of those things. It's your understanding of the game and your ability to execute on that position.
Don:Also the technology, giving you a better understanding as well. Like, I think the biggest quantum shift was what the Golden State Warriors did with Steph Curry in basketball they went down the path of statistics and beat the big boys right, and now it's the same thing with all sports. We're starting to look at more and more numbers. We were talking about earlier about tennis, where you know where they changed, like they start looking at at the, the shots and measuring all the data around it and how noac has taken advantage of that, and so all the sports are changing. With the technological advancements that are that we are having, how much do you think that's going to sort of it's giving way for people who don't have that big presence or the fastest sort of speed on the field to make sort of better inroads into the sports, and how is that going to help female sports? I think that's it's going to be pretty big.
Amy:I think it's a fascinating time for women's football in particular, because we see some of these big major nations deciding oh my God, spain have decided to play now. They just come out and win the World Cup, but their team is so phenomenal. So how does Australia keep up with these other countries? We're European. They're so technically strong In Asian countries which is who we need to play against to qualify for Olympics they are so technically on the ball phenomenal, whereas the US are a powerful team. They are just athletes. They are sprinters who can kick. Essentially, that's generalised.
Don:You played in the US, right? How was that? I played?
Amy:in the US. I played against the US national team and even the German. I mean, they look like they've been fed well, like they were all six foot five, and it was like, how do we beat? So? I think that's one of the big things is, how do you as a nation, with the skills that you've got, beat a team that's incredibly technical, like Japan or North Korea? Then come up against a Germany or the US who are all like six foot seven, incredibly strong, but also they're not quite as agile. So you've got to. I think that's where data comes in, where you can go. This is why we are better.
Tenzing:Well, it's also investment. So think about the US women's team right, they've been playing in colleges for a very long time. There's Title IX there as well, so equal money needs to be spent at university level on males and females. So when you've got a comparison program like American football and one of your big south universities, mississippi or something where they're huge, they need to be equal money spent on female, and it's usually football. So US has probably got an advantage in that way because it's got the bigger leagues, it's got the university spend. What more do you think Australia needs to do to get it to that level to compete against your Spain's and your European country powerhouses?
Amy:Well, it's a great question. Well, I think first and foremost, it's a numbers game as well, and I think we've seen the rise of women's AFL, which is brilliant. I love that for women and having the options as a young girl coming through because I would have loved to have played AFL, so I love that. But also, football is Australia's number one played sport and I think people get a bit confused with that because they're like maybe it's not the most watched.
Don:I thought it was netball.
Tenzing:So it's football? No, we are. Highest participation is football Soccer.
Amy:By a long shot, by a country mile. Up to what age?
Magnus:Because I noticed that as a youngster I played, obviously, and I finished up at about 14, 15 to go and do other things, but in those junior years it was supremely popular. But at what stage? As an adult participation sport is it still number one?
Amy:Still number one. In a team sport, I mean, there's swimming and cycling, which is a bit harder to measure because they're maybe not be organised, they're probably more recreational in nature, yeah.
Tenzing:But they would typically drop off a cliff anyway across all sports, around that adolescent 15 to 17-year-old mark.
Don:But do they come?
Tenzing:back, yes, so tennis went through an emergence with Tennis Australia. We went and had an interview with those guys. At one point they lose all their kids, from about 14 onwards. And then what happens is they said well, let's focus on our community level later on, and that's when they come back and it becomes a lifetime sport, right?
Amy:Yeah, and it depends if you're talking holistically as participation or if we're talking the elite pathways. And I think sometimes and what we've seen happen recently is it's easier to make it in other sports than it is football. So they may grow up playing football, but domestically you could jump into an AFL team and you could have a really great career domestically. But now there's more and more options also to go overseas and earn a lot of great livings and live all these amazing adventures you can have with football as well.
Magnus:Back on the participation. So when you've got the US and you see that they've got a great pathway and it's awesome to hear that they're spending that equal money on male and female but clearly the UK isn't that one of the countries that are at the top level as far as participation goes and obviously elite athletes coming out of that in soccer.
Amy:Yeah, great question. So I think there's a little bit of a misconception around, because everyone globally has heard of the Premier League. They know these big, massive clubs. In the women's game there's three or four that do a phenomenal job. You've got the man Citys, you've got the Arsenals, you've got the Chelsea phenomenal. Then there's sort of daylight in the rest of that competition. So I think when you look at the US, they've got, say, 15 teams. I don't know the exact stats, but they are all incredibly competitive, all of them treated well, all of them exceptionally professional, whereas the top two or three in Europe are excellent. So Barcelona flog everyone. They're winning every week 7 or 8-0 because difference between the top of the league and the bottom of the league. So it's about you need to have both. Really you need to have a top increase the ceiling. So get those man cities out there and go. I'm going to pay millions and millions of dollars for these girls, we're going to train them, so we're unbeatable. But you need a bottom up approach as well.
Magnus:If that's not happening, then the league just so you think that is lacking over in Europe?
Amy:I know it's lacking over the same in France there's two or three teams. They win absolutely everything. So Europe has a long way to go in bringing the bottom up at that professionalism, whereas Japan, again, stronger all across the board, us stronger across the board, but the top. Top may not beat the man City because they can just buy everyone. But it's getting there, slowly but surely. You see other teams like spurs go okay, I'm going to invest in my women. Everton, okay, we're going to get there. They'll take four or five years, but it's coming um, which is brilliant amy.
Don:so, um, just going back to your post soccer career, football career, what are you doing now? Are you still working on the medical device business? Is that what you're doing at the moment?
Amy:Great question. So yeah, I spent 10 years with a major med tech company doing neurosurgery and then about seven or eight months ago I left that company. I just wanted a new challenge and I've actually got my own company in med tech, so we do a few things as one help.
Don:Give it a plug. What's the name of the company?
Amy:Medical Technology Institute is what it's called, and so we do. We do three main things really is we help people get into med tech. So you said how do you get into med tech? No, there's no degree that you can do that will get you into med tech. There's, you've got to have a science degree, you have to have some sort of degree, and then everything is trained by the company. So how do we grow that talent pool?
Amy:And my in particular passion is helping athletes get into medtech, because it's a very rewarding career and it actually suits them a lot. I think a lot of athletes they kind of fall into something because someone's there and gives them an opportunity, which is fantastic. But I'm also quite passionate about ensuring they have a passion that they can follow, because you know, I loved it and I probably helped maybe 50 people get into med tech, most of them being athletes, and all of them are still in it. All of them are thriving. So we do that.
Amy:We have an education business, so we've got a six-week course to help upskill people, to help them get into med tech. We've partnered with all the four major sporting codes, so who have funding to support their athletes? Then part two is re-recruit, so we get those talent and we partner them with the major medtech companies. And then my real passion, if I'm being truly honest, is around bringing incredible medical technologies to Australia. So, similar to VO coming in and changing the game here, I want to do that, but on a particular passion around neurosurgery. So some of these technologies that are being developed to treat brain tumours overseas, they're not coming to Australia anytime soon.
Magnus:What are those leading countries in that space?
Amy:Oh, europe, without doubt, and the US Very tricky and it's a very tricky process to navigate. But we're having a few conversations now about bringing some technologies to Australia. Who wouldn't come here because we're too small. So everything's a commercial. Not only is it going to save patients' lives or give them opportunities and hope where they don't have it, but if it commercially doesn't stack up which it doesn't we're too small in Australia. So what we do is we go to the companies over there and we bring the market to them and say let us do it on your behalf, and then we distribute those products in Australia.
Don:So if an athlete wants to, you know, be a part of this or join you, what's the best avenue?
Amy:Well, yeah. So obviously, if they have any interest in health or have done any degree in health, the best pathway is obviously to reach out to us and then we help either if they're ready to go, and then we'll help them try and find a job and upskill them If they want to do more study or they're still playing. There's a handful of current Matildas doing our online course, which is brilliant. So it's very technical, it's very niche, so you're not just learning why do people have knee replacements, you're learning what do they actually do inside theatres. Why are they using robots inside theatres to make cuts and do all this? It's very. It's almost like building, but inside the operating theatre, if that makes sense. So it's a bit combo of construction. It's very hands-on, it's very niche, but we help put them on that pathway, empower them, and then we help land them the job.
Magnus:How much is that? So you mentioned the word building. That's my background, so my ears are pricked up. How big a robot is going to get? How do you see the future of that in the operating theatre?
Amy:moving forward, oh, it's massive, and I think there's maybe again a misconception around what the robots are actually doing. So if you look at knee replacements, for example, what you do there is traditionally the surgeon makes the cuts on where they need to, but now you upload a patient's CT scan into the robot, then it's preloaded, so it makes those cuts exactly based on that patient and where it needs to be cut. So I think it's not a robot like how people picture robots, but the technology and AI unbelievable opportunities in health. It's just can the health system afford it.
Don:I think we need to have a separate podcast. Yeah, that sounds cool, doesn't it? It's a bit too unpacked. Well, I do have someone who's going to join our panel. That's a specialist in neuroscience research, so I think this is a good one for us to actually unpack, with him sitting down on the chair. We're going to run out of time, right, but there's a few things that I wanted to ask you on the ticket and I haven't asked. But as a panel, I think we should quickly go through those things because I don't want to miss out on it. Sure, one is Usain Bolt playing football. What was that about and what's your opinion?
Amy:I think Usain Bolt really backed himself as a footballer Unfortunately for him, very quick.
Magnus:He's a better sprinter than a footballer.
Amy:Absolutely. Yeah, Look, it was a great PR exercise for the Central Coast Maritors and for the A-Leagues, but he stood out like a sore thumb, unfortunately.
Tenzing:So you wouldn't put him in the middle, you'd put him on the wings. This is the relevance of the positions.
Amy:Yeah, he looked very out of place but, yeah, brilliant. He loves the game, he genuinely believes he's good and he thought he was too good for the A-Leagues, unfortunately, but I didn't mind it.
Don:It was entertaining. So in dropping names, you played with Ronaldinho last. I did yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, you were there. I did yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amy:Yes, you were there, I watched it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was funny, I hadn't.
Don:How was that? I forgot about that.
Amy:That was the first time I pulled on the boots in three years was because Ronaldinho said he was coming to town, so yeah, I played in Tim Cahill.
Don:you had some, yeah, I.
Amy:I played in Tim Cahill's Celebrity 11 against Ronaldinho, which was pretty unreal.
Amy:He didn't nutmeg me, which was like a key thing that I was going for. No, it was a brilliant experience. I hadn't put on the boots since having a baby and all sorts of things, but I really I should have scored. I'm still disappointed in myself. First touch, you scored, but great experience, it was good fun. What do you do for fitness now? Well, I've got a two-year-old, so if I had all the options in the world, I would love to cycle. So I'm pretty into my road cycling and I loved that. I just go to the gym at the moment and I run. I couldn't do a marathon or anything like that because my knees don't love back-to-back running so I can run one day. Got to have the next day off run the next day, so that but gym and cycling, I think. But I would love to do something competitive again. I'd probably get into triathlon.
Magnus:Well, it's so important as a ex-professional athlete. And then, once you've had that transition and then being able to maintain that, because clearly you were doing a lot as a professional athlete, and then, yeah, I think it's important for the average day warrior to maintain a level of fitness.
Amy:I'm looking for something new. If you're going to sign me up for something, I mean I Well, there is.
Don:Since you're a 100 and 200-meter runner, maybe it's time for you to come and have another crack again.
Amy:Oh God, the hamstrings will be at the start line.
Don:still, you're a side team.
Tenzing:You, oh God, the hamstrings will be at the start line still your private side team you want to jump in?
Magnus:Yeah, I could do, I'm still very competitive and probably don't have the body to take me there Cycling's, I think, a great one, because you can do that up until a very old age and, yeah, bad knees aren't too much of a problem.
Amy:Yeah, Honestly, I haven't found something that I've gone. Yeah, this is my next thing and I think it's been a journey of trying to find out what it is this has been one of my things right.
Don:I'm a huge advocate of Masters sports, whether it's athletics, swimming, cycling or whatever it is, especially for someone like you who's been competitive. Just going out there and having a run is not going to tick that box. For me it didn't, and that's why the competitiveness is what keeps bringing me back. I'll keep running. People ask me why do you keep running around circles and jumping over hurdles at my age? It's because I need it and that's what sort of gets me out of bed and that's what keeps me fit, and I think we'll be better off as a society if we can get more people to actually find what that gets them out of bed, and I think that is one of the big things.
Amy:When you leave elite football environment, it's very hard to find something, a goal, that you're so passionate about. Like since having a baby, I thought I'll get back out to 5K and I'll just try and do my best 5K, but it wavers weekly. I'm like, oh, do I feel like it? No, you know that motivation is not quite as. I'm like, oh, do I feel like it?
Tenzing:No, you know, the motivation is not quite as I'm like who's? Really measuring me here? Did you want me to ring you up and yell at you to?
Don:keep going. You have to train for something, and that's what you've done all your life, right.
Amy:Correct and I'd never wavered, like there was never a hesitation to jump out of bed and going. I'm doing those extras, I kind of things. I have struggled, I think, to really find that something there. I'm like I really want to do this.
Tenzing:So I'm open to ideas, but yeah without fail, I do, we'll find you something.
Amy:I exercise every day because I don't feel good if I don't.
Don:Queensland Masters Athletics. We run every weekend. You're more than welcome to come and join us.
Amy:Okay, there'll need to be a ball or something in front of me. I need to chase something. Maybe you?
Tenzing:I think you need to play some five-a-side soccer or something.
Amy:Also yeah, could do that.
Don:You need a team, though. That's the thing, and it's got to be competitive and you've got to win. Okay.
Amy:That's the opportunity. I don't do any defending important question.
Don:This one's a controversial one. Right Like transgender athletics athletes.
Amy:It's a tough one. What do you think? Yeah, it is a very interesting topic and I think if I maybe have a different answer if I've got my Football Queensland hat on or if I have just my personal view. So, as a footballer, this has never been a concern for us and I have had some transgender athletes come and train with us, play with us, but I grew up playing with men and we loved that. And I also think it's different when it's like I said before, we're a decision making sport, so if you're just a strong athletic person that comes in, that's not going to make you a better footballer and it's not going to make you make better decisions on that day. So we haven't seen it be quite an issue as you would in weightlifting or swimming or a direct speed pace.
Don:It makes a huge difference.
Amy:So we're a decision-making sport as well, and if you don't have the skills, you don't have the skills. So I think it's less prevalent in women's football. Mind you, we did play against South Korea in a tournament when I was playing for the Matildas, and it turns out they did have two men playing up front, so they ended up getting kicked out of this tournament.
Amy:This is also a fine line as well, I think, because there's a couple of phenomenal Nigerian female footballers whose testosterone levels are quite, very high, but they're naturally women, so they just happen to be also. I think elite female athletes will obviously be somewhere on the spectrum of power and all those sorts of things as well. So it's a really tricky one For me with my Football Queensland hat on, because we have had some issues in New South Wales football where people I think first and foremost is safety of everyone involved. I absolutely believe in opportunity for everyone, but paramount is always around that safety. When it comes to grassroots, I think elite is different conversation, but it's not so much of an issue. There's someone, a prominent person in women's football, that talks about this very passionately. If you ask every Matilda what their top 20 issues are with women's football, I can tell you there's 100 issues much stronger than that for women's football.
Don:I think that's a really good point. There's a million things If you've got the platform talk about things that really are going to make an impact.
Magnus:What's the number one thing they're concerned about?
Amy:Well, I think culturally, I think there's still a very male-dominated sports. It's very difficult for young female to walk in and feel culturally accepted in a lot of sports. We see this a lot in rugby league and people say, what do you mean by that? So I took my two-year-old to a football game at a local club recently. The first thing she walks into the female change rooms and she sees a trough and she's like, well, there's a waterfall in here and I was like, oh, this is yep okay. And then the next thing you walk in and there's only pictures of male football teams. All in the history of that. So I think we've got a lot of work to do at grassroots to make people and the environment more culturally inclusive. Even if I put my board and governance hat on, there's very few females in the game outside of just football From any kind of governance perspective. There's very few female coaches. I think it's huge. There's a massive can of worms of things we could be doing and investing in. That's where I would see the priorities.
Tenzing:Does the Legacy Fund, do you know much about it and how has that impacted football landscape for females in Australia?
Amy:I know a little bit about it. Obviously it's ongoing. So I think what the World Cup did obviously is phenomenal, and I think it's not just for women's football, it's for the sport of football in Australia and we've been severely underfunded for a really long time because, you know, we aren't the AFL, we aren't rugby league. So I think we're a top-up sport as opposed to sorry, bottom-up as opposed to top-down, bottom up as opposed to top down, and that's our funding model. Then it's difficult to get the support of government. So I think the legacy fund and the power of the Women's World Cup has been essential in changing the infrastructure, getting women's change rooms at these clubs where there were none. There's a lot of work to be done in that space.
Don:Talking about legacy and World Cup. The next one's going to be in the us canada, mexico, I think. Um what's happening like how are we? How are we tracking? I touched on it before we don't. We don't have a coach, yet we've got an interim coach. Our coach abandoned us.
Amy:Um what is oh, I don't know if he abandoned us. His time was up, I, I think.
Don:It feels like that right, Like when you're looking from the outside in.
Amy:Yeah.
Don:I'm not yeah.
Amy:And the interim coach was the perfect person for it. He was Tom Simani, was my coach at Matildas for a time as well. He knows the game, he knows the plays, he knows everything. He's done a fantastic job. As far as I'm aware, it's a done deal with who is going to sign and it's just waiting for that contract window to come.
Don:Do we have an exclusive here?
Amy:I would if I was a betting person. I think they've publicly said it's come down to John Aloisi or Joe Montemuro, and it would almost certainly be the latter I would think. He's fantastic. He's won. Well, he hasn't won Champions League, but he's won the major championships with Lyon, juventus, arsenal, melbourne City. He's passionate about the women's game. He's passionate about football. He's the perfect person for it. He's just been contracted up until a certain point in time, so that's why.
Magnus:Is he a cultural fit for the Matildas?
Amy:Yeah, yeah. So a lot of the players. He knows them and he brought them up under Melbourne City. And time will tell. I think he, and time will tell, I think he's certainly got the football brain, the football smarts, but his job will be to get the best out of these individual players and deliver when it comes to tournaments. We've got the Asian Cup on home soil coming up.
Don:That's going to be the next big one, right?
Amy:A lot of people don't know. But we haven't. People sort of say, oh, did you go to the Olympics? We didn't. The whole 12 years I was in the Matildas we did not qualify for the Olympics. North Korea kicked us out From 2004 to 2016,. We didn't go in between. So it is very difficult to qualify for the Matildas, even though we're very competitive on the world stage. But we qualify through Asia, new Zealand, go through Oceania. So they beat Papua New Guinea 11-0 and you're off, hold on.
Don:How are we not in Oceania?
Tenzing:We were, but we made a strategic decision. Well, the boys were the same.
Magnus:Yeah, I know we used to play the fifth place South American team right, that's right. Okay, quick fire question time. You ready, I'm ready. Who was your toughest opponent on the field?
Amy:Probably Marta. Brazilian footballer Brilliant Brazilian football are brilliant.
Magnus:One game you'll never forget.
Amy:I played a game in China and they had 70,000 people in the crowd and not one was for Australia, or maybe less than 10, and that was just wild.
Magnus:What's the biggest misconception about women's football?
Amy:Maybe that they're all getting paid really well or it's actually really only a handful at the top. I think it's still pretty tough going for 99%.
Magnus:What would be your all-time dream game to commentate on?
Amy:I probably did it already, to be honest, like a World Cup final, which I did, and then also that France game against Australia. You couldn't have scripted that any better.
Magnus:Wow, If you could give 15-year-old Amy one piece of advice. What would that be?
Amy:Wow If you could give 15-year-old Amy one piece of advice. What would that be? Change your hair, I think. Maybe. Don't hesitate. I second guess a lot of. Do I commit fully to football? Just go for it. Go all in. That's what I'd say.
Magnus:Who's your most inspiring female athlete in your lifetime?
Amy:Oh, good question. I think originally Cathy Freeman would be. Obviously she's an icon. Now I'd be a range of different female footballers, probably. I'd probably list about 20 of them, but there's lots more, which is fantastic.
Magnus:What lights you up, what gives you inspiration?
Amy:Probably my two-year-old daughter. She wakes me up at four. She's also probably my inspiration of how can we keep paving the way. Luca, luca, luca, yeah.
Magnus:One ritual or superstition you had before a big game.
Amy:I was always like put my left boot on first. For some reason I had to put my left boot on first, but I don't really know why.
Magnus:And was there a particular moment when you felt you'd made it as a Matilda?
Amy:Yeah, I mean, I think when I was really cemented in the starting 11, I think you get there, you get the start, you get the game but when you were truly a very valuable player, I think that was maybe the moment, and I did get to play in the SCG against Canada and I scored in front of my family. So I think that was like a oh, no matter what happens from here, that's cool.
Magnus:What's the best thing about the future of women's football in Australia?
Amy:Oh gosh, it's a brilliant time. I think the next generation that's coming through. We're probably going to have to skip a generation, but this next generation of talent that will come through will be phenomenal. But I think my favourite thing is just when you drive around and you see young girls and young boys playing all together. It's such a brilliant sport for everyone.
Magnus:Well said. What do you struggle with?
Amy:Oh, I don't do downtime very well. I would say I have to do 100 things at once. So yeah, I struggle. Sitting still would be what I would say.
Magnus:What's something most people don't know about you?
Amy:I'm a twin. I said that already. I can play the drums, wow.
Magnus:Yeah, and if a genie popped out of a bottle, what would you wish for?
Amy:Good health for everyone my family, friends. Good health, that's all you can really ask for.
Magnus:What are you obsessed about?
Amy:Coffee I am, so I'm tedious about my coffee. It has to be perfect. I will drive for days to get good coffee, so I'm annoying like that.
Magnus:All time favourite movie.
Amy:Anchorman without doubt.
Magnus:The most valuable advice you would give to anyone wanting to become a master.
Amy:I would say just be uniquely yourself, and I say that as in you can focus on the strength. I'm very strong on strength-based ambition, so don't get caught up on the things that you can't do. Emphasize and work on those things that you do brilliantly. And my context with that is there's no point in me trying to learn to be good in the air because I'm still small. So be absolutely phenomenal at the skills or the speed or whatever it is you bring. And in the corporate world as well, I apply that heavily. So I'm not so great on the strategic side of things, but I'm a brilliant networker, so do that. Make sure you're doing what you're good at every single day.
Magnus:What great advice and what a great way to finish. Thank you so much.
Don:It's been awesome, your insight, tenzin Don, it's a great time for sports, right, as you said, it's a golden era. Two of the most visible sports are kicking goals Like the World Cup. Football is one of the biggest participation and viewable sports. Track and field how good is that? That's my passion and it's absolutely killing it. At the moment we are breaking some really big ground. There was a 14-year-old that just broke Reading Bowl's 100-meter record 11.14.
Amy:That's wild.
Don:Crazy.
Amy:Future's bright.
Tenzing:It is, it is Very bright. It is in Queensland, galkart as well, right, yeah, mate, they're all coming.
Don:It's 2032. If we develop these athletes properly football, track and field it's going to be Australia's turn.
Amy:So we'll put a football in front of those sprinters is what we need to do.
Tenzing:And then follow it with a camera too. Exactly that's it Brilliant.
Magnus:Thanks guys.
Amy:See you, thank you.
Magnus:Hope you enjoyed this exciting episode of the Mastering Podcast. If you got value from today's conversation, hit that subscribe button now and share this episode with a friend. Until next time.